Roots of Addiction Treatment

John Driscoll and Jeff Jay talk about the Roots of Addiction Treatment.

Jeff:

John Driscoll is the senior vice president of recovery services at the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation overseeing all their clinical efforts nationwide he also serves on the board of the national association of addiction treatment providers. And is their current board chair John has worked in the treatment field since 9091 and is a licensed alcohol and drug counselor. He earned his bachelor’s in psychology at Northern Michigan University in Marquette Michigan and an MBA from Hamlin university he was born and raised in Randville Michigan and started his career at st martin de poor’s house of hope in Chicago Illinois I’m just so glad to have. John here with us today because he’s really been a champion of recovery for many many years so thanks for being on the podcast today. John.

John

 thank you Jeff it’s a pleasure to be here with you today and thanks for having me. .

Jeff

Ah, right? Well let me just jp right in  in preparing for our podcast today I noticed that it was really  kind of a fortuitous conversation that you had with your aunt. At your father’s funeral when you were a very young man in your Twenty s which led to a smer internship program with homeless women many of whom were addicted and their children. Ah at st mountain deport at St Martin de Porres House of Hope how did that. Internship and that experience with your aunt and the nuns.  at st martin de poor’s  change your life.

John

 well thanks Jeff great question. Ah you know it. It was  my aunt had been working with the homeless women in Chicago since the early nineteen eighty s and had a nonprofit shelter that she was running with her partner sister Teresa Sullivan and  and and they they were serving women and children who  were homeless and and they were  enabling them to  save money. . , and be able to get into an apartment later on and  go on to to pull themselves out of homelessness when when I came  to the shelter and 9091 at at the funeral. My aunt really said you know. John you’re you’re here in upper Michigan.  it’s a great place but you you really need to spread your wings. You need to get out there and see the rest of the world. Why don’t you come to Chicago with us and and so I took her up on that offer. It’s probably something that had my dad lived I probably wouldn’t have done. Probably would’ve stayed in the up. That’s what it what we call it up. There. Upper peninsula of Michigan and  and and just you know continued on with my life and and my career up there. But as a result of that conversation I went to be an intern at at the shelter and.

John

Ah, in the early 90 s there. The crack cocaine epidemic was just destroying large parts of the country especially at the inner city and in Chicago and we were right in the thick of it there sixty fourth in Woodlawn at the time was not a great area to be in There was a lot of drugs. There was a lot of gangs and the women that were coming into the shelter what we were seeing was they would stay for a number of months save up several thousand dollars of aid most of them were on welfare. Ah, we helped them save their food stamps so they would leave three four months later with several thousand dollars of cash from their saved money and several thousand dollars of food stamps enough to get a good steak  in in the ground again and keep moving and so.  you know we figured this. This was a good model to get out. But what we discovered unfortunately  is they’d show up about a month later completely broke and and and needing shelter again and what it was was they were spending it all on crack cocaine is. As any of us know giving several thousand dollars to a crack cocaine addict is not a great idea and they’re going to spend it quickly and so with the help of a recovering priest by the name of father Gordon another clinician and a couple of women that were active in the local and a group.

John

Ah, we began to say we need to do something about this and and that’s where where my career really started to learn about addiction and and what I saw  through women working a simple 12 step program in really a horrible part of the country. There wasn’t much going for them at all. . There. There was not a lot of jobs available at that time the education. The Chicago had public education system at that time was not very good. Most of them had dropped out of high school most of them had multiple children so they had a lot of things stacked against them yet by working this simple 12 step program. . They began to take their lives back and and become productive responsible members of society again, they became mothers again. They they became  employable again and  it it was really an amazing thing to see and anybody that’s ever worked in the field. Knows that when you work with somebody in active addiction and then see them later in active recovery they become completely different people and that’s what I fell in love with that. Hope that’s created through working this simple program. The transformation of lives because it doesn’t just save the the individual it doesn’t just convert the individual it converts their entire family system and and that’s what I was able to to see and experience and then help develop so what turned into several months stay at a homeless shelter.

John

Working with those individuals I mentioned earlier we developed a long-term treatment plan program where people would stay for 9 to fourteen months as they work through their recovery as they work to get their GED as they work through job trading programs and really have a chance. Ah, to start off and and better their lives and actually today I’m still in contact with many of the women from the shelter. They just actually celebrated Sister Teresa’s eighty second birthday here just this week in Chicago. And  you know some of them have one of them that started with us is over thirty years sobriety there’s a large handful of them that with over 25 years sobriety and they’re still active in the program today and. It’s amazing to me as I speak with them and follow some of them on Facebook now because many of them are in the field they’ve they’ve gone on got master’s degrees in our clinicians in the field that they’re still working this program. They’re still active in the 12 steps they’re still have sponsees and they’re still living a great life.  free from drugs and alcohol and so it’s that transformation that really pulled me out of the realm of just general psychology or psychologist and put me on the track of.

John

Let me work with alcoholics and addicts because when they recover they really recover.

Jeff

That is so fantastic and it reminds me frankly of my own experience when I’d been sober about five years I decided to kind of stop making money in a normal job and become a counselor at sacred heart rehabilitation center.

Jeff

And, for about half the pay I was making previously and you know it was all indigent men and women from the city of Detroit and they would spend about thirty days at our downtown facility and then come out to a little town in Memphis Michigan where father Vaughn Quinn had gotten his hands on on an old seminary and turn that into a treatment center and we’d have them for another ninety days out there and it’s really just like you said it was really all about  kind of getting them back into into the world getting them into the 12 steps. Introducing them to the recovering community and getting their lives back and many of them would then start out maybe working as ah, a dishwasher and then as a night house manager and then as a a counselor intern and then as an intern. Ah. Or rather as a counselor and I know my clinical supervisor at the time had come up in just that way from homelessness ah to running the whole program. Ah and like you say that transformation is just so powerful.  there’s. There’s really just nothing like it. You know I  I know that when you came initially to St Martin de Porres House of Hope there in Chicago.  You help them…

Jeff

Develop a more structured program because initially as you were saying it was pretty unstructured  which was you know to give them greater accountability and more 12 step involvement.  can you tell me a little bit about how that the development of that structure. And that integration into AA helped with the home’s expectations and the ultimate success of the women who are going through the program.

John

Sure, absolutely you know what we experienced was  people that needed structure. They needed good orderly direction if you will and the program gives it to you. You know there’s there’s a lot of the life lessons a lot of the slogans. Ah, that really are great learning pieces if you have it and most of the women here that I dealt with  you know one  hundred percent of them had experienced physical abuse 80% of them had experienced sexual abuse and 80% of that 80 Percent had experienced sexual abuse by a caretaker or someone in their family system that was supposed to be there to help them through and and so you had a lot of individuals that didn’t know what.  compassion was didn’t know what empathy was didn’t know what unconditional love really meant in their lives and what it was like to really have somebody that truly supported them and and so you know the mixture there of shelter of accountability.

John

Of love. Ah so of  you know, empathy and in in giving them direction as to what they needed to do and to make choices. You know,  sometimes when when the women would get upset with the the rules. You know there was. You need to make your bed. You need to do a  family or a a community chore. You need to do an individual chore. You need to stay up with it and and they’d say you know I don’t know if I really want to do this I used to say you know there’s locks on the doors keeping people out. Not keeping people in every day you have a choice is this what you want to do or do you want to go back out and do what you were doing. You know,  and and so we were able to to really sort of tie in again to that hope and. And once we got it going and that was one of the great things of of our first person who was really energetic and and just just one of the the best han beings you’ve ever met would continue to come back and and people could see  the transformation she made because she used to say you know. I was the the woman walking in the back alley at midnight and no I wasn’t scared because I was the scariest person in that alley at midnight and and and they knew her they knew her from the streets.  and and she had lost custody of her kids back then and today she wasn’t that person and she had custody of her kids back.

John

And and she was there to help them and so you know the whole model.  yeah, you know going back to Dr Bob and Bill  about how this this program works.  really, . Continued this to lay the groundwork for more and more people to follow it and and you know where where I made my decision was if it can work here and it can make such a  profound transformation on these women’s life with so many things working against them. . This program can work anywhere and I want to be a part of it and so I’ve spent  nearly the past thirty years of my life trying to do just that is help people access.  recovery,  and and transform their lives and and it’s been a truly. . Worthwhile fulfilling mission for me  to see to see the transformation and and and watch what happens so it’s been a great great career. A great life.  to be a part of that.

Jeff

That is marvelous and you’re so right? There’s nothing like that power of personal example someone who has walked the same walk that you know the the patients or clients find themselves in and. And and to be able to say you know I got out of it and so can you the the story that you told about that woman and that she was the scariest person in the alley I Just love that because so many of the clients at Sacred Heart were exactly the same way and as they went through there. Transformation I mean it was just a beautiful thing to see really a beautiful thing to see.

John

Well and 2 and obviously that’s the beauty of the program is you know addiction leaves you isolated and alone and you think you’re the only one like that and then as you begin develop the relationships in the program and you start to hear your story told through other people’s lives. You begin to connect and those relationships begin the form you begin to help each other and you’re on your way. So it. Yeah it it really is an amazing  set of steps.

Jeff

That’s so true and you know there’s a lot of talk these days about the power of connection and I really think that the  the recovering community the larger 12 step recovering community is just a connection making machine in large part. Because of exactly what you were saying that you know there is this commonality of experience and this unbelievable hope. Ah, that change is possible that it’s real and let us show you? how.

John

Yep yep, it works if you work it and when you can see somebody do it. You start to believe you can as they said yeah, all you need is is the hope the side of of a muster seed and it can happen.

Jeff

That’s right, that’s exactly right? So I know that going  from that environment. Ah and and coming up to Hazelden in Minnesota  must have been a great change. What was it like for you personally when you first came up to center city in 9099.

John

Yeah, it was a significant shift.  it it really really was I was coming out of Illinois which at the time didn’t require licensure  or certification and I was coming into Minnesota which. Recommended certification. But there was rors that they were moving towards licensure and and what I did was I I had looked ahead I my first introduction to hazelden actually I was using their books and materials.  several years in at the shelter we began to. Get curricul. We put the the programming together and so I knew them as a publisher and  when when I decided to move to to Minnesota after meeting my wife and she’s from Minnesota.  we thought you know I’m I’m done with the inner city.  there.  it was a wonderful experience for me but also too it’s it’s a very dangerous place.  and and there were incidents that happened over the eight years I was there and I didn’t want to raise my family there and so we made the decision to move. But as part of that  I knew I was going to need to become licensed some way so I did apply to a couple of jobs  in at Minnesota treatment centers. , and and I got turned down for them.  in eventually the the Hazelden counselor training program which it was called at the time.

John

Bruce Larson who’s a long-term educator and and well-known member of of the Hazelden family accepted me in into the counselor training program. So actually 98 to ninety nine about nine months because of my previous experience. They put me through the training program. Ed Hazelden so that I could qualify to become licensed which I did and then got hired and worked as a counselor. It was  it was a huge transformation to me because at that time we we really were a twenty eight day model of care and and initially I used to think Twenty eight days you know it takes thirty days to get your first chip. What are we going to do in Twenty eight days we’re going to get them through steps 1 through 5 the pace of change. What was so different and unique to me  from a long term treatment setting.  but but I also. Began to realize you know what we needed to do in that stabilization and begin the prep for recovery to happen and and you know when you work with somebody for 9 to thirteen months you’re able to experience a lot of the recovery process. where where in a month you really need  discovery and and stability to begin setting the stage for recovery and and frankly, that’s it’s one of the things that has guided me in my career here if you look at at hates little then excuse me.

John

If you look at Hazelden and and the model of care that we get in the late 90 s and what we’re doing today. , it really mimics much more of of what I was doing in Chicago where we’ve really lengthened the continu of care and and kept people engaged much much longer. And and so for me that that initial shock of I’ve got twenty eight days to form a relationship move people through was a hard adjustment and and  you know I didn’t stay in that role very long after 10 years of direct.  patient care with the aid in Chicago and to it at.   Hazelden I  I ended up shifting into training and then eventually management  right away and and that began to to alter and shift what I was able to do with our patients and our model of care. , it. Including helping to create the the current model that we’re under of helping move people from clinical management to self management over a period of time.

Jeff

I remember when I was a young counselor I  had the opportunity to hear Dan Anderson speak the former  president of Hazelden great ph d psychologist who I know you know  knew and .

Jeff

You know he  gave a a talk  that had a profound effect on me and  I remember in the middle of the talk. He said you know there’s really only two things that we’re trying to do  in the treatment process and I thought, Wow! What’s he going to say you know I mean oh God that really got my attention and he said you know one we want to help.

Jeff

The patient break through their many levels of denial at depth so that they come to a point of acceptance that they have this disease and that while we can’t cure. It. We can put it in remission and then number 2 to encourage them  to become a part of. And commit to a long-term program of recovery and I thought you know I still think  probably I probably heard that in the late eighty s so it’s it’s more than 30 years and I still think that that is just , a wonderfully succinct. Description of of what we’re trying to do because treatment really is just , a parenthesis in the middle of someone’s life and so  I’m just wondering you were starting to allude to it as you were talking about. Ah you know, getting a longer continuum of care and. From where you are now I’m wondering.  how do you see treatment. How can treatment help people find their way into that larger community of recovering people and really long-term recovery.

John

Well I think I appreciate using the example of Dr Dan Anderson who I’m a big fan of and I did know and actually I’m I’m personal friends with his youngest daughter Monica who still lives here in the community and .

John

You know it. It was interesting.  when you mentioned that the 2 things working with the women in Chicago that was one of the biggest adjustments for me is when I came the treatment I I hit all these people that were in denial of their disease and and I didn’t get to experience that I remember I used to. Talk with the women in the group saying you know I can’t convince you that that you’re powerless over drugs and alcohol. You’re you’re sitting in the basement of a homeless shelter and and this is this is a step up from where you were last night I said. If life and and what you’ve experienced hasn’t convinced you that that your life that you’re you’re powerless and your life has become unmanageable. There’s nothing I can say in this room that can convince you of that and and so really I I got to to get them right at the point of yeah I’m powerless and I need help.

John

That’s why they came through the doors of the shelter they were at the Rock Bottom. There was no further place to go and all we had to do is work on part 2 of that of let’s establish long term recovery and I remember that that really was the the difficult piece for me is what treatment does is attempt to interrupt. Natural Rock bottom which for some people is Death. We Really want to try to interrupt it and and that’s the thing for me is that treatment does work treatment does interrupt the the natural bottom that people are going through it helps bus through the denial. So that is they say in the program. There’s more yets to come the treatment helps prevent you from experiencing more yet. Maybe you haven’t lost your job. Maybe you haven’t lost your family. Maybe you haven’t lost your custody of your kids yet. But if you continue down this path. At its end addiction is alienating isolating and leaving you alone and that’s the path that that you’re headed to if you don’t die before you get there now now I know that sounds a bit dramatic and and it sounds  you know like a horrible course to go down. But. You know that’s that’s what I’ve experienced throughout my career of people that continue down the pathway of addiction and weren’t able to cling to the hope they needed to turn that around and and so you know that’s that’s a big piece here of that initial treatment is let’s let’s.

John

Raise their bottom is what we said? let’s let’s make this be enough. Let’s not add anymore yet to the level and begin the process of recovery relationships from there and and that really is the beauty of the program and when you look at what the 12 steps did and what Dan brought in with his.   model was that connectedness to say there’s a way through this in a way out and by working together.  and by sharing it. You know there’s there’s a saying in the program that the newcomer is the most important person in the group and and for a long time people think well that’s so that I don’t forget what it was like. And and really I think sometimes that’s misinterpreted because the newcomer is the most important person so that I can retell my story. Not so that I can listen to theirs but I can retell my story connect with them and also remember where I’m at and why I’m sitting in these rooms and working these programs. Because addiction is lifelong. It’s not going away. There isn’t a cure for it and and we we need to continue to actively work to keep it in remission or it’ll begin to find its way back and and that truly is embodied in what you mentioned about dan’s. 2 key things and I believe if you look at the model of care that the Hazel and Betty Ford Foundation employs today is really that continuation of of that original model that that Dan Anderson laid out and and he never said. In fact, he said the opposite that that .

John

What he was doing was the best it could be he continued to say take this model and improve it more people need help and they need help in in in  more efficient and better ways continue to evolve the model so that it does a better job. and and and I really believe that’s that’s what we continue to do?  everything I do at the organization I try to keep connected to those roots.  and and continue to see myself as as a  person that continues that mission.  through the work that we do so Dan Anderson was a tremendous leader at that time and I believe he’s still leading us today.

Jeff

Thank you for that. You know I think that’s such an important point what you were saying about treatment being a way to interrupt the bottom because it really can go on and and sometimes patients will think oh you know that we’re being overly dramatic and yet for. People like you and I have worked in the treatment field for a long time. It is amazing. How people who are at the other end of the spectrum.  from the the homeless women that you are working with  will have all these consequences all these yets if they don’t. Really glom onto the message of recovery. It is a progressive illness and  and it really will take you down despite your very best thinking your best discipline and everything else I know  in my own case.  it was a family intervention. My my addiction had taken me to a very dark place I was you know sleeping under bushes in the city parks out in California having been raised in a very nice home and community and in close point Michigan and . And I still didn’t think that I had an alcohol or drug problem I really only thought I had a cash flow problem but I had become so sick really by the ripe old age of 26 that I had decided quietly I didn’t tell anyone that I was going to commit suicide.

Jeff

And  and it was really only that family intervention and on an orthodox one I might add  that  that got me into treatment and it was only when I got into treatment that I was able to kind of come to. Come to understand my position understand that I did have a disease et cetera all the things that you were talking about and get another shot at this thing you know called life because I really thought that my life was over before I got to treatment. So . Really do  flaw that idea of of making this the bottom right now in in treatment and and then showing them a new path into recovery and I want to talk a little bit about that or or ask you to talk rather about. How you see the transition from clinical care into the larger recovering community I think it’s a very important point that you make that now we can kind of lengthen that engagement. . With with patients with clients and and help them to make that transition. How do you think that we as clinical people can play a role in in making that ultimate transition into. Ah.

Jeff

Self-care self-help groups the the larger recovering community.

John

Sure I think we can play a significant role in it. You know the the research out there shows. There’s 3 sort of magic underpinnings that really make this work when we talk about when we look at people that are successful and in recovery versus those that that. That that struggle with it is. There’s 3 key things that we’re really trying to do that underpin it and and it’s length of engagement therapeutic alliance and self-efficacy length of engagement of course is the longer you stay with it the better you are there. There is there is some some truth to the 90 meetings and ninety days and the keep coming back and it works if you work it. We know that the longer we keep people engaged the better. Their outcomes are therapeutic. Alliance is is freely going back to the a a pieces of sponsorship.  and saying you know, follow the leader in some of this follow the person that’s a footstep ahead of you and and and you can get through it and and as a clinician you know that that was the piece for me is I you know I incorporated so many pieces of the program into my life and one of them is is gratitude and hbleness is. You know I’m not responsible for for 1 of my patients. Ah recovery I’m there as a guide I’m there to try to hopefully give them a nudge in the right direction that then they’re able to take the action steps they need.

John

To make some of those those changes and if I’m fortunate enough to make the right nudge at the right time.  and and and they listen there’s a little bit of therapeutic alliance therapeutic alliances basically saying you know what? this is what you’ve been trying. Why don’t you try something else and they agree to do so. So so. You can have that from a clinical standpoint. You can also have that from a sponsor standpoint  the underlying principle is is really the same is that you’re taking direction from somebody other than yourself and and that is so key.  even in the first 3 you know the first 3 steps of the program of the foundation. Of of I can’t something can and I’ll let it you know that was the way I I simplified those a lot of time is is you know come to believe that we’re powerless.  or or we admitted that we were powerless over addiction. Our lives have become unmanageable. We came to believe a power grid in ourselves could restore us to sanity and. We then made a decision you know to turn our will and our life over to a power greater than ourselves and and so it’s really working those 3 simple pieces of the program I can’t something can all let it  that that really fits into that therapeutical alliance piece. And and the third piece as I said is self-efficacy will you translate that into the language of of the 12 step programs self-efficacy is basically the belief that you can accomplish something that you can do something well we call that hope you know so that’s that kernel there that comes in step 2.

John

We we have a belief we we have some hope that my life can improve if I follow some of this direction. So using those 3 key underpinnings as a clinician can help transfer that away from you know the the initial 6 to 9 to twelve months maybe that you’re you’re seeing. , professional through multiple levels of care. That’s not all residential and that’s how we’ve adjusted our program so that a lot of this is on an outpatient level is that you begin to transition that relationships and those things you do under clinical direction to a a supportive group a supportive sponsor. , that you begin to do that work on your own similar to to you know  a teacher maybe helping you understand and learn how to do things in a school-based system. But then you take that knowledge and and language and apply it to your job and your career and you continue on. Without necessarily needing the teacher with you. It’s really the same concept there of what we’re trying to do and the direction that that we’re trying to go in and and so that’s a big piece of of what we train our clinicians to do as you’re a guide here on the way we need you to use some clinical interventions. We need us to understand what are we dealing with  you know at Hazelden for many many years we gave the MMPI and and the MMPI as a personality test you can understand well who is this person what other strengths what other weaknesses. Ah you know where are they at at the shelter living with somebody for thirty days

John

You figured out all those things without the and MMPI because they’re who the person is and so that’s how you begin to help people make that change the the difference is the clinical piece. You don’t need as much time you don’t need as long as time to build the relationship you can get in there find it out and begin working the process right away.

John

And again that shortens the bottom  with with people with addiction. , usually they’re they’re small windows of opportunity to Intervene and and you used one in your own story.  that you just shared about there was an opportunity. There. The family took advantage of it. Even if it wasn’t the best. It was the right time and and it started a process for you and and that’s the same thing we need to do here on the clinical side is is that we need to strike when the iron’s hot and and intervene during that window we can  so that. So that the disease doesn’t continue on further than it needs to be.

Jeff

Isn’t that true and  you know I’m just wondering what your thoughts are about. You know we we have all had the experience of having people in treatment who are quite resistant even though they’ve come to. Maybe a  pretty profound level of consequences which one would think would kind of snap them out of it and bring them to some awareness that change was necessary but they’re just not there and what do you see in your experience as being the best. Therapeutic interventions for  people that we have in treatment that are still resistant to the Message. We’re giving them.

John

The peer group much more important than the counselor. The Counselor’s role there with somebody That’s really resistant is to basically have have the the resistant patient. Tell their story and explain their case of why they really don’t have this disease and why it’s really not that bad  to the peer group.  because the peer group sort of knows it again as I as I mentioned earlier they see and hear their own stories in their own selves in the other person. Sometimes that mirror that they have that looks at themselves they see themselves as different the power of sharing the stories again going back to the Newcomer is the most important person in the group is so that people can connect with their own story and their own powerlessness. Because after a little while and that’s one of the most dangerous things in early Recoveries. We begin to forget and think oh I’m okay, look at this I rebounded better I’m feeling better I Really don’t have this disease turns out they were wrong and look at me I’m fine and then they begin to stop doing the things that got them a little fine. And they find themselves back in in active addiction again and and so so the peer group really is able to help them reflect and talk to them that you you don’t have to build this this   battle between I’m the clinician.

John

And and I’m I’m educated and I know what’s going on here and let me try to burst through your your barriers but really utilizing the power of the peer group to say you know what? just listen to some of these stories is there something in here you you can connect with and is this something that you want to continue with. Because again even at hazley even at other treatment centers for the most part, the locks are on the door keeping people out, not keep keeping people in and that’s the key difference I like to tell people between addiction and and recovery is recovery gives you the choice as to what you want to do. Once you take that first drink or that first drug the addiction is in control and you no longer have a choice you’re on a path that you’re following and so which way do you really want to go and and that’s where you really try to get to that raw rigorous honesty about what do I want to do with my life. And and Jeff you even , alluded to it again. A little bit in your story where you said well I wasn’t going to tell anybody but but I have the thought of I was going to kill myself. There was that piece inside of you that despair that was so big yet. There was also some type of yearning for hope if if there was a way out of this and. And suddenly it was presented by a group of people that loved and cared about you and that’s the amazing thing about about a peer group is those bonds that can be created really in a very short period of time and treatment can really be the ones that act as a family and in some cases better than a family.

John

And in fact, that’s what I saw at the shelter was because a lot of these people came from families that were not very good and not very supportive. The family of strangers that they created in that shelter was much stronger and those bonds exist today.  thirty years later much stronger than than even some of their original family members do and so my piece is as a clinician is let’s try to get honest, let’s try to put the story out there and then let’s try to listen to what the peers say and see how they rally around you and see where we can go from there. And whether that intervention works more. So then I’m the clinician I know more? let me talk to you and show you the way out.  I think it really is better to go with the peer group.

Jeff

I love that answer and it’s one of the reasons that I really love  residential treatment I love having people in treatment long enough that they can really bond with people I mean I know it can happen on an outpatient basis too. But it really happens. In a residential setting and that peer group can say things and say it in some ways with more authority even than the clinician which is kind of counterintuitive because they may have only been sober for three weeks or something but . They can talk to that newer person in the group in such a way that  really breaks through levels of denial that really can’t be  done in any other way in my experience once again, there’s just no replacement. For someone who’s walked in your moccasins so to speak to come forward and say you know Jeff you’re you’re just crazy. You know I mean listen to what you’re saying you know you’ve got to make a change and when that’s coming  from someone else in the program from my peer group. It carries a lot more weight. , the counselor who’s going home at five o’clock so I really love your answer I think a lot of times families want the  clinical team to be able to wave a magic wand and and break through their loved one’s denial and get them to commit to that program of recovery, but it happens.

Jeff

Much more often and much more effectively in my view in the peer group as you say in the group therapy sessions.  that’s where the action really is.

John

Yeah, yeah, and and and 2 you know people don’t always understand what’s happening or what’s going on. You know they’ll want you know I want my loved one to be meeting with the counselor every day I want them to meet with a psychiatrist every day they have all these mental health issues. They have all these problems. You know, somebody needs to get in there and fix them and work on them and and and truth be told you know the the spirit the magic of the program that Dr Dan Anderson and them came out with with the Minnesota model was was really not. You know, one know it all. , that that knew the path and where to go we we weren’t looking for a guru here. We were looking for There’s a peer group and there’s people everywhere. There’s a connection everywhere and and it doesn’t have to be relied upon 1 individual but really, it’s a lot of individuals. And they don’t have to be close family or friends. They just have to be there in the room and willing to connect and form a relationship.  and and it’s an incredibly powerful experience to be a part of and again it’s it’s one of the things that I really love about.  working with people with addictions and the addiction field.  because of that that type of experience. It really is  and , an awesome thing to be a part of.

Jeff

Yes I have to say I really love that too and I  run up against it all the time in working with families. Exactly what you say that they want lots of one-to-ones with the counselor and they want the psychologist and the psychiatrist and all that and they say: my brothers sister husband Whatever you know, just hate anything in a group. Well of course nobody loves group therapy. It’s difficult I Guess it’s I mean it would be just as difficult as having to go through physical therapy after a tough accident.

Jeff

, it can be painful and  and really not something that anyone would choose to do and yet that is where the action is. That’s where the real magic happens just as you say and and the group can be. Almost  like a family in a certain sense and really give the guidance and direction and Love.  that really can’t be delivered any other way I Just think there’s so much power in that.

John

 well and and that is the power of of the anonymous whether it’s narcotics or alcoholics anonymous or whatever else anonymous out there is that you know part of the the spiritual principle behind that is. I’m able to bring unconditional love because I’m I’m not your mother I’m not your sister I’m not your father I’m I’m not your relative I don’t there’s all these other connections that we have. There’s all these other influences. That we have you know, even my mother who who probably loves me more than anybody else in the entire world does has has secret you know desires of of always me always being first place and me becoming the the doctor or the astronaut or the most successful person. There’s always these yearnings that they carry with them in these different relationships and sometimes that in and of itself can create pressure and undo things where where we want to either protect ourselves from them or we want to protect them from them. You know as a little kid. Maybe we told our mom and dad that that or our mom that we were. We’re sick and not feeling well. But as adults we we tend to want to protect her and say well let me just see if I can get through this myself. So I don’t worry her type of thing that goes on there whereas with anonymous. It really is is I’m here with people that are that when I’m speaking in the group.

John

Their sole purpose is to figure out how they can support and be a part of me without all these other expectations. It’s me in this group in this meeting at this moment and they’re there with unconditional support and love for me for whatever I’m going through. And and and the advice may not be advice that they give me a telling me what to do, but it may be them simply sharing their story and me taking the piece of that and knowing how to apply it to my life and and and that is really a powerful tool on that that I Think when you look the underneath all of the things that make  12 step groups and and anonymous programs work is a key principle of that program that’s made it so successful over these many decades.

Jeff

That is so true. So true I want to turn  to  the role of actual family and  and and however we define family. We don’t always define family in traditional terms now. But how can 

Family Recovery  support the identified patient.  you know in in their treatment and early recovery I’ll just give you a little story I know when I was going through residential treatment many long years ago. .

Jeff

They had a 5 day family program and I was shocked and amazed that my father who was an attorney and a business owner  took five days off work and with my mother came and attended five days of all day family and  i. Could not believe it  the commitment that they showed and then horror of horrors. They actually started going to elanon too.  and so it made it almost impossible for me to not follow through with what I was being asked to do after seeing their commitment. So .

Jeff

I Really do see that that family can play a very powerful role in in recovery and I just wonder how you see family recovery as being a support for for that identified patient.

John

Yeah I as I mentioned before with with family.  there’s all these other layers of connection that we have  there’s there’s multiple things. There’s long term connections. There’s. Long term strengths and weaknesses and and joys and memories and grudges and and it’s a complex relationship that that’s lasted over years and years and years and and so .

John

It it makes it. It makes it difficult There’s also a lot of emotion and connection to the people we have strong feelings about people.  that were connected to and consider family.  whether biological or or sort of  connected  family and and loved ones in there and and so. It’s  it’s important that as we see a loved one going through this issue and again addiction is alienating and isolating it’s it’s fighting against those relationships. It’s using them in ways that are not productive. 1 of the the key things is is to be able to love but detach some of that emotion and some of that is coming to the acceptance and and and this is said different ways in the program. But you know you didn’t cause it you can’t control it and you can’t cure. It.  you know there’s so many different things out there. If I was  a better mother if I was a better wife if I was a better husband. My spouse wouldn’t drink or use or or do these things if if I just love them more. They would get through it. So there’s all these different thoughts going through people’s minds and 1 of the key things and 1 of the first things we talk about. , in any of our family programs is really the disease of addiction is that this was not created by a family circstance or situation is that this is the if it is the effect of a disease.

John

That your loved one has it. It’s not going away and and it’s not it. It doesn’t matter how bad or how good your family situation was and so the most important thing for me is is that initial piece of letting the family know that you know what it’s not your fault. And and as you see your your loved 1 either struggle or get better It’s important to be there and support them as much as you possibly can but also realize that that you’re not really the one that’s guiding this or or moving it is that. This is inside the person and and then reaching out for the help and the strength that they need to to get through these things and  you know I always tell people if if they want to see or experience what a miracle actually is a true to life miracle and any way you describe it is. Meet an individual on day. 1 hour one of a family program and look in their eyes see listen to a little bit of their circumstances and and see that that that sort of despair that that  fear that  unaware unknowing. And then meet them in the last hour of that family program experience and and chances are you’re going to experience somebody who has had a miracle.  their eyes are full of life. There’s a lightness in in their emotions there. There’s hope.

John

Ah, in their words, they’re connected. They have had a transformation is what it tends to be and and it’s no secret why why? our program and frankly nearly any  family program out there that that does any type of therapy is usually highly rated and loved. Anybody that goes through it because miracles happen in a short period of time through simple awareness connectedness and and and information and and so as a family member that’s really the first step is understanding what role do I play in this. What role can I play in this and and and what support is out there for me as I go through this process with my loved 1.

Jeff

It’s so true I think there’s there’s nothing more powerful than having the family come to that awareness as you say it’s a real miracle and then have them start working their own 12 step program of recovery. . Not in  in an attempt to control their loved 1 or anything like that. But to start their own recovery process make their own changes so that now both the patient and the family have a common language and they know that they’re not responsible. For each other’s recovery, but they are responsible for what they do and and how they will progress and work with a sponsor and go to the meetings and all the rest if everybody gets into their own recovery at the same time. It can be a much more powerful process.

John

yeah yeah to to me you know one of the prayers and whether it’s a prayer or saying I don’t want to get into a religious thing where or people get turned off by that but it really is the serenity prayer. It’s as simple as that I . Had the opportunity to to give a  commencement speech at my high school. It came from a very small area in upper Michigan and there was 23 graduates or so in the class that I was speaking to and I had 5 minutes and and I said you know the wisdom that I can impart on you today can really be smed up in the sa surround of you prayer you know god grant me this interview except the things I cannot change. Okay and and and it’s important because so many times in life. What we’re doing is trying to change things. That we don’t have the power to change.  you know the courage to change the things I can which which is really ourselves I mean that’s what we’ve got the power to change but we tend to spend so much time trying to change others that that we forget and and we don’t use the power that we do have which is ourselves. And finally the wisdom to know the difference and and and and if I would change that prayer at all. It would be the wisdom to know the difference between the 2 of what I can’t change what I can’t change and and and for me that that’s a guiding  theme in my life is always trying.

John

Understand What are the things that I’ve got influence over and what are the things that I don’t because if I’m focusing a lot of time and energy on trying to change something I don’t have power over chances are I’m would be pretty frustrated whereas if I can put the focus where it needs to be  on things that I can actually do something about. Can be very happy and very successful in what I do and so you know going back and again these are lessons I learned at the shelter  working with the women  in the shelter they taught me this about the program and it’s something I’ve really applied to my life all the way through. And and it really is that one piece of wisdom that and somebody says what’s the most important thing I can consider as I move forward in my life. It. It really is the serenity prayer in my opinion.

Jeff

Ah, that is marvelous I can’t tell you how much I have enjoyed our conversation today the time has just flown by I feel like I could keep talking for another 2 hours but we’ve really covered so much today and I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to be on the best minds podcast today. It’s really been a pleasure.

John

Well thank you Jeff I appreciated visiting with you as well. And yes the time did fly.